Monday, September 28, 2009

The Celtic History of England Suppressed Again

As everyone now knows a huge Anglo Saxon horde of gold was found in a field near Walsall in July by an unemployed chap out with his metal detector. I wish nothing but good luck to Terry Herbert who found the gold and stands to make a couple of million quid, but I do want to cast a skeptical eye on the experts the British government has put on this treasure trove. At the press conference on Thursday with tears in his eyes Dr Kevin Leahy started quoting from Beowulf as he described the dozens of gold and silver objects recovered from the field. What Beowulf has to do with anything is beyond me. Beowulf dates from the 10th century and these items come from the 6th or 7th. It would be like quoting from Cheers to explain something that happened at the Salem Witch Trials. I'm also suspicious that these objects have been definitively called Anglo-Saxon. Do they look Anglo Saxon to you? To me the artifacts are unmistakably Celtic in origin and design. And here's a few reasons why they might not be Anglo Saxon: Firstly, they were discovered in an area which was a boundary zone between the native Britons and the invading Germanic peoples. Secondly the Germans were pagan, the West Britons Christian and yet three crosses and a verse from the Bible in Latin were found in the horde. Let's unpack that a little. Who do you think is more likely to have a Latin Bible verse written on gold on them, an illiterate pagan Anglo Saxon warrior or a Celtic Romano-Christian Briton? Well, according to the experts the illiterate pagan of course. Thirdly the tentative attachment of this horde with Penda, King of Mercia is also odd because Penda claimed to be a direct descendant of Wotan and was certainly not a convert to Christianity (although some of his children may have converted if you believe Bede).
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So what's going on? This is what I think: The entire "Anglo Saxon" history of England is largely bogus. The Germanic peoples from Denmark and Saxony did certainly migrate to England in the fifth and sixth centuries but the native Celts were not slaughtered or driven from their land. Thanks to DNA research by Bryan Sykes (et al.) we now know that a relatively small number of Germanic invaders became an elite upper caste in the central and eastern parts of England some time in the fifth and sixth centuries. The great mass of the English people remained Celtic in language, culture and origin. These Germanic invaders did not penetrate Wales or Scotland or Ireland, but the idea that the English are different from the peoples of the "Celtic fringe" has been hard to shift. It was a largely Victorian notion and comes coupled with the idea that the English are Germanic, democratic, logical while the Celts are romantic, dreamy, talkative, illogical. This entire idea is - excuse my Anglo Saxon - total bollocks. A lot of English archaeologists haven't caught up with the DNA evidence yet because it shatters the paradigm of the history/propaganda they were taught in school and university.
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They need to get with the new science. England like Ireland, Scotland and Wales was a Celtic country (with Germanic overlords) until much much later than anyone realised. To me this treasure is a startling example of Celtic art and to my mind has nothing whatsoever to do with Anglo Saxons (a dodgy term in itself), King Penda, or, God save us, Beowulf.

60 comments:

John McFetridge said...

You make some excellent points.

A lot of people's history and identity is based on false information. Reminds of the scene in Barney Miller when Dietrich tells someone that Asian people are more serene and have a calm acceptance of death. Yemana overhears and tells Wojohowiecz, "Not me, I'm going kicking and screaming."

"Why don't you tell him?"

"I like the image."

Has anyone changed their beliefs in their history based on newer, more accurate information?

seana said...

Well, I have no particular ax to grind here, as I am pretty sure that Germanic invaders, dodgy Anglo-Saxons and definitely some of those ne'er-do-well Celts are all part of my genetic makeup. My question is, who has the most to lose if new ideas discredit the old--apart from teachers of Anglo Saxon history I mean? Seems like Celtic pride and British condescension would both be bent out of shape by this news.

I do have to say that everywhere I turn these days, I am finding 'experts' who seem to be blinded by their own theories--or vested interest--from seeing common sense. First economists, then health care officials, and now apparently archeologists in a British field. That wouldn't be so bad if it hadn't been for the health care town halls this summer, which have left me with no faith in the non-expert populace either.

adrian mckinty said...

John

Did you see that episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry learned that he wasn't Jewish, but was adopted? He started saying "old chap", dropped his neuroses and decided to donate his liver to Richard Lewis. It was pretty funny. Of course there was a mix up...

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

Well, I dont want to necessarily play cui bono, all I'm interested in is the truth. If I'm wrong about this so be it, but I think these guys are jumping to conclusions way too fast.

seana said...

Cui bono? It's safe to say that the population that really benefits are all those middle-aged men who would rather toddle around with their metal detectors in their free time than spend their time at home helping around the house.

I expect Terry Herbert's name is going to be bandied around in certain quarters for a long time to come.

Brian O'Rourke said...

Not a bad find. I should get a metal detector. It seems I'd have better odds with that than winning the PA State Lottery.

I'd like to think we change our beliefs based on newer, more accurate information, but it seems always to take a generation, or two, or several, for change to take place.

Hubert said...

As soon as I first heard the story break on the BBC, I thought oh here we go- more misinformation and disinformation of the dark ages coming up by our media.

No mention of Angles/Saxons were originally invited by the Romano-Britons as mercenaries to help defend areas of Eastern and Southern Briain.

And no mention at all where the original gold could have possibly come from to make these pieces, which possibly was from the then fairly extensive amounts to be found in Ireland. And these pieces could have been made from the melting down of older gold pieces.

Agree with the workmanship and expertise of the Romano-Briton craftsmen of the time- any fool should see a probable link there to these in some way.

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

Terry Herbert is without doubt a folk hero to all those men who are desperate for a break from their wife and kids. It used be walking the dog of fixing the car down the garages but now they'll just pretend to be off metal detecting. Thank you Terry.

adrian mckinty said...

Brian

Well Darwin's still having trouble 150 years later isnt he? Another one of the reasons I never want to live in Texas.

adrian mckinty said...

Hubert

The gold's probably Irish or Welsh and the thing is they can almost certainly TEST for that. If they find that the Gold came from Wales and the designs are Celtic are they going to add that to the fact there were three crosses and a Bible verse in Latin and finally admit that this might be a Romano-Celtic artifact rather than an Anglo Saxon one?

I bet you they dont.

seana said...

Hubert, glad to see that Adrian has someone on his side.

I'd like to say more, but I have to get out there with my metal detector. It's dark here, but I'm optimistic.

I realized that what I said before might have been what we call in California a sexist remark, so I am trying to atone.

Plus, I might get rich.

Hubert said...

Adrian,

If you have a chance, view Dan Snows excellent BBC two part documentary "How the Celts Saved Britain", aired earlier this year. It is available on Google videos, well, in Britain it is, hope it is where you are. Search the title only and it should come up, posted by "viddler-dotted-com".

It explains the coming of Christanity to Ireland and Britain in order- first to Ireland by mainly St. Patrick, then to mainland Wales and the Western Hebrides area of Scotland, then to mainland Scotland, then down to Northumbria and eventually to the rest of England. Also, later on, St Augustines missions to the South and East of England is discussed.

I well recommend it.

adrian mckinty said...

Hubert

That sounds right up my alley. I only know Dan Snowe from those battlefield programmes he does with his father.

I am a little worried about the timeline though. St Patrick had to come from somewhere though didnt he? And the most likely place is either Wales or England so there must have been a large Romano-Christian population already there before the Irish missionaires came back.

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

Mark my words the sale of metal detectors is going to go up just so guys can get out of the house.

seana said...

I know, but much more crucially, because it relates to me, what's going to come on to the market so that women can get out of the house? I mean, I live alone, and even I need an excuse.

Of course, social interaction with other people would be the sensible way out, but I see enough of them during the work week that the search for rare metals sounds sort of plausible. "Spirit of yesterday, take me where the gold appears. And also, for a customer on the phone Saturday, show me where I can find a nice pair of 3D of glasses."

Hubert said...

Adrian,

It is believed St. Patrick came from the Severn Estuary area of Britain originally, maybe on the Somerset side. Roman Christianity was breaking down in old Roman Britain due to the chaotic repercussions from the Romans retreat from Britain, economically and socially, and with the increasing amounts of raids from the sea via rivers by northern European raiders, and even eventually from previously friendly neighbouring communities. Desperate times, you could say.

But St. Patrick was the main catalyst for the recovery of Christianity in mainland Britain, after first introducing it to a previously pagan Ireland. It then spread by its missionaries to Scotland and then re-introduced into the old Roman Brittania territories of Britain.

The new Anglo-Saxon provinces may have taken a while to convert, unlike the still Briton controlled areas of Wales, Cornwall/Devon and north-west of England, which was just a simple reinforcement, most probably.

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

Well there's always golf. Aren't you just a five minute drive from the most beautiful golf course in the world?

adrian mckinty said...

Hubert

Yeah thats what I'm trying to say. There's a pre existing Romano-Christian culture in the Severn Estuary and western England and Wales that could be the source of these remarkable artifacts.

Not that I'm knocking the pagans of course. In many ways Patrick ruined a wonderful pagan culture that seemed to function quite well without Christianity.

Hubert said...

It could be said that that the main attribute of taking up Christianity, that St. Patrick saw, is for the promotion of a more civilised society, but that may be stating the bleeding obvious, so to speak.

He was taken as a slave to Ireland, and when he returned there after a brief period back in broken down Britain, that was the first thing he made sure of getting rid, as soon as he got his message over to the Irish chiefs of the time.

Paganism, itself, is quite respectful of nature and culture. But Patrick made sure to keep the best bits of it to be within Celtic Christianity then, like maybe combining Christmas with winter solstice celebration. Other Pagan days of celebration have never really been critisised though the ages, like Halloween and the summer solstice etc..

Brian O'Rourke said...

Adrian,

Yeah, good ole Darwin still gets a bad rap in a lot of places, doesn't he? And don't get me started on intelligent design...

Hubert said...

Darwin was fighting against Rome, even though Henry the VIII earlier discommunicated him and his successors.

How do you think Darwin came over in France and Italy then, tell me?

Like an arse on fire, methinks.

seana said...

Pebble Beach is actually more like 50 minutes from here, and of course, too pricey for mere mortals to play at. My cousins used to live in Pebble Beach--the community, not the golf course-- and we would visit them whenever we came to town. One of my cousins was a caddy for a year or two and met a few celebrities that way, if carrying clubs around for someone could be called meeting. I remember walking down from their house through the woods and all the way down past the lodge and through the golf course to the Carmel beach when I was about fourteen. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

I'm not sure if that's a good metal detecting beach, but it is one of the most beautiful beaches anywhere and I'm sure you could at least find a few golf balls.

Hubert said...

Bing Crosby, Bob Hope and Tiger Woods- they would be lost with a cutting edge subsonar-electronic metal detector in their grasp, no doubt.

I would love to know where Pebble Beach comes into this, one of the first courses I played on with Microsoft Golf, alongside the selection of Augusta, way back in the early '90s.

seana said...

Oh, that's the most beautiful golf course in the world that Adrian was referring to above.

At least I think that's what he meant, unless he has a strange preference for DelavVeaga golf course here in town, which is in fact five minutes away. It's nice, but it's no Pebble Beach.

adrian mckinty said...

Hubert

Yeah Seana lives just a couple of double bogeys away from golf heaven, well unless you catch Royal Portrush or The Old Course on a rare sunny day.

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

Well if golf's not your bag (did you see what I did there?) then it will have to be surfing. I'm sorry but it will just have to be. Even if you drown in the attempt or get beaten up by the local toughs, you've no choice really.

adrian mckinty said...

Brian

Funnily enough I just read Richard Dawkins latest. Its a lot less shrill than he normally is and I liked it.

seana said...

And also funnily enough, i just listened to Karen Armstrong talk to our local radio host about The Case for God and she blames Newton for the whole Intelligent Design thread of misguided thinking. She probably isn't your cup of tea, but I enjoy the way her mind works.

Even if I become enlightened, I'm coming back next lifetime to be a surfer, but it will have wait till then, I'm afraid. Meanwhile, I look forward to your list of surf movies.

Peter Rozovsky said...

A bit o’ art history.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

adrian mckinty said...

Peter

Its a nice theory but actually I think the native Irish had been doing art like that for thousands and thousands of years before St Patrick or indeed the Celts.

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

I like Karen Armstrong. I've read a couple of her books and was quite impressed.

Peter Rozovsky said...

Oh, I stood at rapt attention in the pouring rain before the great entrance stone at Newgrange only last year. I only skimmed the article to which I posted a link here, but I did notice that it differentiated between older spiral motifs and later interlace.

Also -- and I hestitate to mention this, since it might lead you to think I consider Philadelphia a civilized city -- Karen Armstrong will soon read at the Central Library in Philadelphia, from the same lectern behind which James Ellroy stood just last week.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

Peter Rozovsky said...

Incidentally, our guide at Newgrange took great pride in informing us that it was older than Stonehenge.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

adrian mckinty said...

Peter

I'm very impressed by the level of discourse you do seem to get in Philly. Obviously Melbourne is a long way from anywhere but still I dont think Ellroy's even coming to Sydney on this trip which is a shame as he would pack out any venue.

Did I ever tell you that I got to see inside Newgrange when it was still an archaeological site? My friend and I drove down and camped in a nearby field and walked over and got a tour from the archaeologists of the whole complex. Pretty impressive I thought then.

seana said...

Well, I'd say go see her if you have the chance, though she is not exactly noir. But she will be a civilizing influence on Philadelphia whether it likes it or not.

Peter Rozovsky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Peter Rozovsky said...

Pretty impressive you'd think it now. Yes, you had mentioned your visit, probably when I'd previously mentioned mine.

I have found no greater exercise for the imagination than those ancient monuments of Newgrange, Stonehenge and, especially, Avebury. The intellect has not yet caught up with the imagination.

I liked Karen Armstrong's on Islam, though I recall thinking that some of her invocations of current affairs were facile.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

seana said...

I don't think there will be much discussion of current affairs, at least if she sticks with the topic of the book.

Peter Rozovsky said...

Hmm, I see that I'm off work the night Karen Armstrong is to read. This is a high-prestige event, complete with admission charge. Ellroy was free.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

Peter Rozovsky said...

I don't know about that. God and religion are pretty big in America these days.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

seana said...

I mean that she seems to think of them as separate spheres--she might talk about the confusion of realms.

Peter Rozovsky said...

Seana, I doubt I'll have time to read her new book in the next few days, but I might show up just to hear what she has to say about --od.

adrian mckinty said...

Peter

-OD? I knew the Hasidim would get their hooks into you in the end. My youngest daughter goes to a Lubavitcher daycare. Its really great, wonderful teachers etc. but then you get something odd like the calendar she brought home last week with a gigantic picture of Rebbe Schneerson's mother in the middle of it.

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

I read her book on Jerusalem which I liked a lot and the one on the Bible that was pretty good too.

Peter Rozovsky said...

What's wrong, you don't believe in Go--?

So tell me, do the Lubavitchers know your daughter's mother married a shaygetz?

Hey, I'm going to write a book called Do Not Pass Go-, Do Not Collect $200.

And if the Yankees play the Phillies in the World Series, let's make a bet, of the tiresome kind that governors of states make all the time.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

adrian mckinty said...

Peter

Let's draw a discreet veil over your question. It is a VERY good daycase and we dont want to risk our place there.

I'm up for a bet. The quarantine people wont allow us to send a food bet, but if you're at Bouchercon 2010 I'd take you to Maharani on Post Street which is literally just down the street from Dashiell Hammett (and Sam Spade's) old apartment.

Peter Rozovsky said...

Hmm, last time I was in San Francisco, I borrowed a friend's car and drove to the Napa Valley for some wine tastings. I could use that again to pay off a bet if the Yankees beat the Phillies, but I don't drive anymore. Maybe James Ellroy can. He doesn't drink anymore.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

seana said...

It might encourage you to go, Peter, if I say that based on the interview I heard, Armstrong would be completely at home with your designation of the deity, and probably not uncomfortable with anyone's way of naming what is essentially beyond names.

I think the only book of hers I read was "The History of God". My friends and I did it as a sort of impromptu book group. I don't know that I was all that impressed with it, but I have enjoyed her discussions with Bill Moyers and now my friend Rick Kleffel. She was also on this show Moyers did some years ago on Genesis, which he admirably tried to make quite inclusive, though sometimes with mixed results. Armstrong didn't stand out for me then, though she did with some of my friends. The person I was most impressed with was Avivah Gottlieb Zornberg, and went on to read The Beginning of Desire, her very interesting book on Genesis. I then bought her book on Exodus, The Particulars of Rapture, but, being an incompletist, have thus far failed to read it.

seana said...

Adrian, you seem to be racking up a substantial group of people who you, or at least we, must tiptoe around. First the barber, then the daycare center--where is this going to end?

Peter Rozovsky said...

This Avivah Gottlieb Zornberg looks worth reading. Thanks.

As it happens, my reading today took in moping rather than the mystery at the beginning of The Beginning of Desire, since my eye had fallen on my copy of Grove Press' little edition of Ecclesiastes, with introduction by Doris Lessing.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

adrian mckinty said...

Seana

For God's sake dont drag my barber into this. The man's an artist. He's highly strung.

adrian mckinty said...

Peter

Ellroy may say what he likes but I dont see him staying sober in Belfast.

seana said...

I'm somehow doubting that your barber reads your blog, but oh, all right.

Doris Lessing and Eccliastes. Sounds gloomy, Peter. I admire Lessing's achievement, but somehow or other, I don't warm to her.

seana said...

Also, though I've never been, I somehow don't see anyone staying sober in Belfast. No offense to any temperate sort of person who lives there. It's a testament to their steadfastness of purpose if they have the will or whatever it is to do so.

Peter Rozovsky said...

Also, though I've never been, I somehow don't see anyone staying sober in Belfast. No offense to any temperate sort of person who lives there. It's a testament to their steadfastness of purpose if they have the will or whatever it is to do so.

I have dined twice with Gerard Brennan in Belfast and its surroundings. His total alcohol intake on the two occasions was a single chaste Carlsberg. Where Belfast gets its reputation as a crapulous town, I don't know.
=================
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/

Peter Rozovsky said...

Seana, I've never read Lessing.

seana said...

I thought it was from Adrian. And as for Gerard, well, the now temperate Mr. Brennan has stories. Hopefully marketable ones.

seana said...

I haven't read Lessing for a long time myself, so don't know how she holds up. I do like the Africa part of her writing, a lot of which comes from her childhood and youth. But sometimes you come across writers whose work you can admire in a detached sort of way, and who know more than you do about the subject at hand, and yet still feel as if you would disagree with them at some core level of being about just about everything. It's some difference in the way you look at the world. I think Lessing might be one of those for me, but it's now too long ago for me to cite examples.

Sheiler said...

I love a few Doris Lessing books, but acknowledge that she's very prickly. There are times in my life when I just cannot begin a book by her. But then there are others when I must re-read what I'd just read. The Golden Notebook and Summer Before the Dark come to mind.

Hubert said...

Adrian and Peter,

Agreed, Ireland was producing stuff like this when the rest of Europe was bothering bronze- gold nuggets were supposed to have been everywhere, before the moss started to build up over time over it. Sounds like the rivers then were full of it at one time.

The people of Ireland must be the most concerntrated people of the old Atlantic Seaboard people of Western Europe that spread up the coast with the retreat of the Ice packs over 10,000 years ago. This can be noticed in the amount of bushy "Iberian eyebrows" that can be found in Ireland, especially in the south-west.