I thought Inglourious Basterds was a bit feeble. For me it had the vibe of a well meaning Valentine card from Quentin Tarantino to his surrogate father Harvey Weinstein - a goyish anti-Nazi revenge fantasy light years from the ironic, subtle revenge fantasies of, say, Mel Brooks or Lubitsch's To Be or Not To Be. Unless you've drunk the Kool Aid in Tarantino Land (like most of the critics on Rotten Tomatoes) you've probably had your emperor/no clothes moment; but let's say you're one of those who liked IG, well then, I need your help understanding a couple of things:...
#1. I get the fact that IG is an alternative history, I see that, I've read a lot of counterfactuals and alternative histories, but one thing I know about that genre is that they all still have to obey their own internal logic. You need self consistency in an alternative history for the story to make sense - unless you're in a universe where the rules of formal logic are actually different and if so you need to explain that. So help me understand this then, please. Recruiting the Basterds Brad Pitt explains that he fought the Germans throughout Sicily and Italy as the Allies did in fact do in the real World War 2. In Josef Goebbels' propaganda film we actually see some of this campaign fictionalised. Germans fighting American troops as they push up the spine of the Apennines. So why is it when Hitler is interviewing the Wehrmacht Private about the Basterds campaign of terror in France that the enormous map behind Hitler's head shows the Reich as it was in roughly November 1942 before Rommel was driven out of the Africa and before the allies invaded either Sicily or Italy? The disposition of forces is at least two years out of date, which is a bit of a serious flaw in a battlefield map. This looks a lot to me like a plain old fashioned cock up rather like the moment in the film Atonement when they flash forward to 1939 and we're at the Dunkirk evacuation (which of course happened in 1940). Tarantino prides himself on his attention to detail and care with every element of a scene so perhaps someone could explain why this map is so wrong.
...
#2. This problem is more to do with narrative structure. If you removed the Basterds completely from IG I think nothing in the story would actually have changed. The entire Nazi leadership (SPOILER ALERT) would all still die at the end and in a much more grisly fashion, burned to death by Shoshana (above) and her assistant. Do the Basterds turn any narrative wheels at all in this screenplay, or are they just one enormous sub-plot that doesn't actually go anywhere? Again QT prides himself on the tightness of his scripts, but this seems poorly thought through.
...
I'm not trying to pick on Quentin Tarantino. The first 15 minutes of IG and Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, KBpt1 and Jackie Brown prove that he is a big talent, but I do wish someone would stage an intervention at this point. Everyone needs to listen to older and wiser counsel from time to time and Harvey isn't doing his boy any favours by letting him play off the leash film after film.
75 comments:
IG has a lot of cool moments, but the story is a little messy. Okay, a lot messy. The plot uses a strange ABABC structure, except A and B never really come together in any meaningful way.
I felt a little cheated by the marketing and the title of the film. The Basterds are underused, underdeveloped, and don't figure prominently in the plot, as you stated. How much screen time did they get? All of thirty or forty minutes out of 160 plus?
The Nazi was the best part of the movie, utterly terrifying in an understated way. There are some great suspenseful moments, especially the opening fifteen minutes and then in the bar in the basement. And it was certainly fun to watch, but I was hoping for more.
(SPOILER) Why does Landa kill the Actress if he's just going to allow the Basterds to kill everyone anyway? Does he do it because he enjoys strangling women to death for no good reason?
The first, that seems like an screw up in consistency for sure. As for the second, I think I understood what Taratino was going for. Yes, you had the Basterds busting Nazi heads, but you also had subplots and sub-stories, both including the Basterds but as minor characters. I'm referring to Ms. Dreyfus and of course the shoot-em-up in the bar in which the English guy from 300 gets capped off, to my dismay. I did a review on my blog of the Basterds because alternate history is pretty sweet and I though ol San Quentin did it pretty well.
Except for the whole map thing.
After seeing about 500 commercials for Inglourious Basterds, the only thing I really wanted to know was this? Why do both words of the title look misspelled? I assume there is a reason, like I just don't know British spelling or soemthing, but it stands out in an irritating way. I asked my friend who went to the movie and actually liked it, though he isn't really a Tarentino fan in general whether either word was explained. He said, no, not really.
Was he wrong?
Special announcement:
FIORENTINA - LIVERPOOL 2-0
Normal service can resume.
Brian
I liked Landa and Shoshanna and the first 10 minutes but none of the scenes involving the basterds.
Why does Landa kill her?
I'll tell you why. We hadnt had a foot fetish scene yet in the film and Tarantino is a major foot fetishist, so we had to have a scene where a woman's foot would be important, hence that whole scene in the side room. He couldnt just have Landa look at the foot and let her go, so for no reason at all (considering what he does later) he kills her. Made no sense in terms of logic, but Tarantino got his foot fetish scene in.
Marco,
Thanks for ruining that one for me. Had it set to record on FSC. Ah well. Glad the Viola won. Only wish it were the Giallorossi there in the CL in their place.
Liam
I thought that scene in the cellar was interminable. Just when you thought it was over it went on and on. And I still dont understand why they had to meet there or the point of any of it. BTW my German friend Michael says that Tarantino was misinformed about the three fingers thing as well. That scene made no sense!
Seana
It is never explained. I assume thats how Tarantino spelt it when he was a child and saw the Italian war movie with that title. It aint coy and it aint cute, its just irritating.
Marco
It now looks like our Italian soujourn will be Venezia based rather than Firenze and it'll probably be autumn 2010. Liverpool were lacklustre, but will do better at home.
Incidentally I read Potok's The Chosen and thought it was pretty good. Gay subtext, odd fights between sects, nice stuff about NYC.
Liam
Liverpool will still progress, although they had serious opponents in England this year. Man U, Man City!!!!, Chelsea, Arsenal are all very good. And Real look scary again.
Marco,
Thanks for ruining that one for me
sorry :(
It now looks like our Italian soujourn will be Venezia based rather than Firenze
That's a rather harsh reaction to a Champion League defeat, even if it is a wise choice, given that Venezia is in fifth division.
Adrian,
Too true re: foot fetish. That QT trademark is becoming a little tired at this point. Kind of like when Arnie said "I'll be back" for the 8th movie in a row. Okay, I take that back. "I'll be back" was always cool.
Marco
I think its a question of economics. I would have preferred Florence but so be it.
Brian
I put up with it when it was Salma Hayek in from Dusk to Dawn and the foot rubbing talk was fine in Pulp Fiction but that long lingering shot of Uma Thurman's giant toes in Kill Bill did nothing for me and the little Cinderella scene in IG was a final straw.
Thanks for the clarification--or I guess non-clarification. Somehow I thought as much right from the first time I ever saw the title, but my brain keeps trying to figure it out anyway. Which sounds like some of the experiences of actually watching the movie as well.
Venezia sounds pretty all right to me, and it sounds like it will be off season enough to keep you from being completely overrun by tourists. And you can always go visit Marco on short jaunts. I was going to say day trips, but I don't remember if they are really close enough for that.
Seana
Harvey Weinstein's latest effort I read this morning is a campaign to get Roman Polanski released. The first person he recruited (I'm not kidding) is Woody Allen.
Venice is fine by me but I've already spent a couple of weeks there, whereas I've only been in Florence once for one day. Still, if it works out I aint complaining.
Marco,
No worries.
Adrian,
I see your point about the film. It was entertaining anyway. Liverpool will get through to the knockouts, you're right, but what they do from there? Torres is probably the best striker in the world, but Stevie G. isn't quite himself this season. I really think Real will take Europe this year, and Chels will take the Prem. Especially if Frankie can once again find his form.
Liam
I think Liverpool could have a long term decline ahead of them. I hope thats not the case but I fear it might be. The population of Liverpool is declining and the ad revenue in Merseyside isnt close to what you get in Greater Manchester or London. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U are going to go from strength to strength in England. Real and Barcelona will be the dominant clubs on the continent.
I wish Everton could do the decent thing and drop a couple of divisions.
This Polanski story is going to be interesting to watch, isn't it? Woody Allen--that couldn't be written in fiction. I wonder why Polanski had it so wrong about Switzerland, since he seems to have been remarkably cautious up till now.
I haven't seen IGB because the spelling threw me off. Seriously. I listened to a couple of reviews on the radio, with people talking in a fawning way about a combine of spaghetti western meeting WW2 flick, but at no point did anyone explain why the title was misspelled.
I like Pulp Fiction and Kill Bill 1.
Also, I really got into WW2 films and tv shows - Band of Brothers and also the Winds of War stand out. Loved them both. So I'm not so sure I could easily make the switch from gripping, excellent storytelling to...something that Quentin Tarantino re-invented.
Speaking of knowing who has a foot fetish in Hollywood, Adrian, do you follow the tv series Entourage?
Just asking.
Seana
Woody Allen wouldnt have been my first choice of character witness if I was trying to impress a judge that I didnt sleep with underage girls. Weinstein also recruited John Landis, who, if I recall correctly, was held responsible for killing two children on a movie set.
Sheiler
I've never seen Entourage but my cousin Andrew plays in a band with Adrian Grenier called The Honey Brothers. They're pretty good new wave folkies.
Everton can do some nice things this year. All season, I've had Pienaar and Rodwell on my Fantasy team, and I've just picked up Saha in place of Adebayor. Saha can take those guys places, if only they could buy some defenders. The ones they have now make Tim Howard look like he IS in the third division.
On a rather more serious note, there's a good, angry editorial about Polanski in Salon here.
Adrian,
Woody Allen AND John Landis? Jesus. I don't think Landis was convicted, though he probably should have been, and for the life of me I can't remember if they settled the civil matter out of court or not.
QT even incorporated his foot fetish into the first five minutes of Deathproof.
Want to see IB but haven't yet, so I can't comment on that. However, regarding Polanski--
Among my all-time favorite movies are China Town (Roman Polanski = child rapist), Radio Days (Woody Allen = married his own step daughter), A Streetcar Named Desire & On the Waterfront (Elia Kazan = named names to House Un-American Activities Committee), and Reservoir Dogs (Tarantino = patently insane, IMHO). I’ve sort of struggled with the dilemma of loving the output of some creepy crawlers, but finally came to terms with separating the artist from the art. I can’t hate a work of art because its creator is flawed or repulsive; alternatively, I can’t excuse really disgusting behavior from an artist just because I love his/her art.
What Polanski did makes my skin crawl.
I think The Pianist is a great movie. But the thing I got from that Salon article that I hadn't been sure about before that sealed the deal for me was this:
She did not consent.
That is not a disputed fact, and that is enough for me to think that Polanski does not have the right to claim special exemption from the course of law due to his accomplishments.
Brian
I missed Death Proof but if the foot fetishism is front loaded I think I may have to miss it forever. It didnt sound like my cup of tea to begin with.
Seana
Its a good angry little piece isn't it? I hope all of Polanski's high profile pals read it.
Holden
Chinatown and Radio Days are two personal favourites of mine.
The Rabbi and father beating young Woody is frickin hilarious.
Chinatown is impossible to beat in the 70's noir stakes. Maybe The Conversation and French Connection come closest. Favourite line:
Forget it Marge, it's Chinatown!
Um, "...unless you're in a universe where the rules of formal logic are actually different..." would apply to all of Tarantino's work.
It may be starting to show up more now, but his movies have never made any logical sense. I imagine he would say they're not supposed to, that it isn't important and certainly his fanboys don't find it important.
I remember walking out of Reservoir Dogs and wondering how people could buy that ending. Then Pulp Fiction came along and I realized, oh okay, he wants to send people out of the theatre on a happy note and they don't care how much clumsy manipulation that takes.
But you're right, you'll never have a discussion of Tarantino's movies with any kind of criticism because he has the kool-aid drinking fanboys and also because there's just no literary weight to them any more than there is in a fluffy romantic comedy o a super hero movie.
Wow, I am completely out of touch with my culture, I sound like my father when he heard my Alice Cooper albums.
"No literary weight in a super-hero movie?"
I haven't seen it, but Quentin does come from the American Film Industry, and I always sit down with a very critical mind before any one ot its products starts rolling. Just call me suspicious, if you want.
But they do produce some excellent folk-type films, but not many, and it is hard to come across them, for some reason.....
What I love about Reservoir Dogs is the acting. Like David Mamet’s Glengarry Glen Ross, the story is a little over the top (what the hell are Glenngarry leads anyway?), but the acting is unbelievably good and completely hooks me in. Wag the Dog’s also a quirky story, but the acting makes it so worthwhile and believable.
I’m mesmerized by the acting in Reservoir Dogs, especially Tim Roth’s role. Who else could have pulled off (SPOILER ALERT) lolling in a pool of blood for over half a movie?
John
I liked Dogs except for the cop torturing stuff which did nothing for me. I also liked Pulp Fiction except for QT's cameo which I hated. I think Tarantino's problem is that he had too much success too soon. I think he would have been a better director had he had a couple of early interesting failures that made him have a long think about stuff. I dont think he's ever done the self reflective trip that most artists need to raise their game to a new level.
Marco
Which superhero movie do you think carries the most heft?
Hubert
Well thats too broad a brush for me. I think there's a lot of good stuff coming out of American cinema. Certainly its more diverse and interesting than either French or British cinema. I think I'd rather watch any random US film than anything with Hugh bloody Grant in it. Of course Irish cinema is the absolute worst, epecially anything about the Troubles.
Holden
The Glengarry leads are the people who have actually inquired about purchasing real estate in the last few weeks. These are the people that you want to cold call because they have already expressed an interest. The other leads are worthless because they are years old.
When I worked for the Sierra Club we used to go door to door getting people to give money or join the SC. The favoured ones got the best leads: people who had either given in the past or were current members; the unfavoured ones had to cold car random people and hope for the best. We got a third of all the money we made. The people with the good leads could make 500 dollars in a night. Some nights I'd come back with twenty bucks.
I figured the Glengarry leads carried weight since the characters are all vying for them, but I wasn’t sure why. Thanks!
Yeah, the torture scene in Reservoir Dogs is horrible. I cover my eyes & ears or fast-forward thru that disturbing scene.
Not a big fan of Pulp Fiction. There are a few interesting scenes but I find it pretty irritating overall. It just doesn’t work for me.
Which superhero movie do you think carries the most heft?
Are Watchmen and V for Vendetta superhero movies? If so they're clear contenders (even if inferior to the source material). Alternatively, there's the Batman series.
By the way, this weekend Bastardi senza gloria premieres in my hometown, but I'll wait for the TV.
When I worked for the Sierra Club we used to go door to door getting people to give money or join the SC. The favoured ones got the best leads: people who had either given in the past or were current members; the unfavoured ones had to cold car random people and hope for the best.
Makes me think of a novel I've read. It was set in Colorado. hmmm what was it called, Buried River?
Adrian,
The Honeyboys sound like they're up my alley, well one of my alleys. Too bad I didn't go to that festival they performed at in Montreal this summer. I kind of wanted to go but thought I'd get overwhelmed by the Coldplay fans. I like to listen to a few songs now and then, but I can't go for long on them.
I have a weird thing for David Mamet. His characters all seem to have short, choppy dialogue, movie and tv, but I really love his tv show the Unit.
I walked past the theatre where this movie has recently relocated and had to laugh. It read "Inglorious Basterds". The marquee people had misspelled the misspelling--the basterds!
I saw Kill Bill, Part I, and I thought it demonstrated that a white guy of European descent could make a decent-looking martial-arts movie. As for Tarantino's cameo, his appearance in Desperado was teeth-gnashingly awful, enough to pull me right out of the movie.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com
Seana
That is priceless. I hope they dont misspell in the foreign language versions that would be just too supine.
Holden
I think Pulp Fiction is my favourite one if as I say you can ignore Quentin's wretched cameo. Although Jackie Brown isnt a bad film either is it? Nice lingering close ups and thoughtful performances.
Sheiler
Get thee to a Honey Brothers concert then.
Cousin Andrew is Dr Dorian in this video
Peter
I liked KBpt1 on the whole. I thought the last scene on the roof of the restaurant was very beautifully done.
I didnt care for pt2 and I havent seen Death Proof. Sorry I saw IG in a lot of ways.
Marco
I thought you said you werent going to watch Watchmen?
I thought the directors cut was a little better and the heart of the movie is definitely Nite Owl and Miss Jupiter coming to terms with who they are, but still I thought it was flawed.
Good call on Hidden River. There's quite a bit of autobiography in there.
I thought you said you werent going to watch Watchmen?
I haven't. I'll wait for the TV passage. From what I've read, however, at least the attempt at weight must be recognized.
Chinatown is one of my favorite movies, but Polanski is a POS. As Seana said, she "did not consent," nor for that matter was she legally old enough to even give her consent. Would all of Polanski's supporters have taken up his cause if Polanski HADN'T been a great director but had raped a 13-year-old?
I think not.
And yeah, Adrian, stay away from Death Proof. That film almost made me never want to see a QT movie again.
Holden -
I'm a huge fan of Mamet's movies too, even though some of his plots get a little ridiculous. Did you see Redbelt?
Adrian
But I agree- the old bloke that travelled on a lawnmower to see his long lost brother is a classic, and was very successful. And I love the stuff William Hurt does, for example.
But the tv seventies cop type movies of heroin and other detritus is what I am referring too.
I think foreign distributors of the film had better just try and keep the title in English if they possibly can.
I disagree about Irish films, though. I have seen any number of small Irish movies that were quite enjoyable. Isn't "In Bruges" an Irish movie, for instance, even though it's set in, uh, Bruges?
I've just discovered that both Prato (where you initially planned to live) and Venezia have been promoted to the Rugby Serie A.
They'll play the McKinty derby!
Brian
I hope everyone who signed that list takes the time to read what actually happened in the case. Some of my favourites signed: Wes Anderson for example!
Marco
I wonder if I'm too old to get a game.
Seana
I cant think of an Irish film - if in In Bruges was an Irish film - apart from IB that I've liked.
That is priceless. I hope they dont misspell in the foreign language versions that would be just too supine.
I am prone to agree.
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Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com
Marco, you're not.
Adrian, I'll think of some more and run them by you.
I am not exactly surprised at the support for Polanski, but I am disappointed. The one thing I do wonder about is whether the now 40 something woman who doesn't want to pursue this at this point should perhaps have some say in this. A friend of mine went through a similar cold case trial recently, and there is an element of revictimization that goes along with it as you become grist for the legal mill.
Peter
I can see that you are not lying down on the job.
Seana
If anyone did anything remotely similar to what Polanski did to one of my daughters or nieces I think I'd be tempted to avoid the legal system completely and turn up at his door with some friends and baseball bats.
And yes the victim should have a say but like in a domestic violence case that cant be the only say. Justice is more important than the feelings of the victim or the age of the perp.
I am feeling a little differently about justice after having witnessed it at close quarters. It's not like I have a better answer--though I do know baseball bats are not it--but it is quite clear that it doesn't actually do all that much for the victim, who is really just another pawn in the game.
I suppose issues of financial redress are another matter.
The baseball bat sequence might make you feel good, but it is unclear what it would actually do for the person who had suffered the harm.
Even with all the improvement in sensitivity training etc., I do understand why women don't come forward after rape. I didn't before--I do now.
Seana
He wouldnt reoffend I'll tell you that for nothing.
Peter, Adrian, your puns are really reaching new lows.
Not for a moment. My day is comprised of observations like the one above.
I'd like to write an autobiography called The Corrections, but William Gaddis beat me to the title.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com
The Corrections, but William Gaddis beat me to the title.
and Franzen followed with a novel of his own, The Corrections - now with more lesbian sex.
Peter, Marco
Yeah I think we're talking The Recognitions and The Corrections here. They're easy to tell apart. The Corrections is funny, has lesbo sex and is generally pretty good. The Recognitions is long winded, repetitive and it was written by a first class asshole.
Hoss feathers! Of course you're right. Gaddis' book was The Recogntions. That I made the error in a post whose point was how many stupid word mistakes other people make is especially embarrassing. I'm chastized.
And chastened.
and it was written by a first class asshole.
why first class asshole? (juicy literary gossip)
Marco
I knew an editor who knew him. Apparently he had a massive sense of entitlement and was very very rude to people. You can get a little taste of that in his Paris Review interview.
And chastened.
your thoughts are now pure?
I believe you and for the same reason, I think women still have to keep coming forward, but it still doesn't answer how victims are being helped by any of it.
I liked The Corrections much more than I did the only Gaddis I ever read, A Frolic of His Own.
And chastened.
your thoughts are now pure?
You know the old saying: Chaste makes waste.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com
Seana,
It's called Inglourious Basterds to differientiate it from the original film which was called Inglorious Bastards, directed by Enzo Castellari.
Thank you, Peter. It's an explanation, but I don't think it let's Tarantino completely off the hook.
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